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The South Park Mormon clip

July 21, 2006 at 12:51 am · Filed under Teevee

I finally saw the South Park take on the foundations of Mormonism from a few seasons back. It’s maybe 90% accurate. Not too bad. I think Mormons would take issue with the dozens of holes Joseph Smith digs to find the plates (the angel told him where to dig), and with the assertion that no one else ever saw the golden plates. (Eleven men, most related to Smith, signed one of two documents saying they had seen the plates.) The “dum dum dum dum dum” editorializing does not have a scriptural referent as far as I know.

In a side note, Martin Harris, who is featured in the second half of the clip and who financed the publication of the Book of Mormon, is buried in a cemetery in Clarkston, Utah surrounded by literally dozens and figuratively millions of dead Godfreys, all of whom I am related to.

bk_keywords: Joseph Smith.

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this charming man said,

July 25, 2006 @ 5:18 pm

how does it compare to God’s Army?

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Jeff said,

August 5, 2006 @ 9:48 am

Actually, all of the so-called witnesses said or implied that they didn’t actually see them or touch them physically, but saw them in a vision. During that time period, and especially in that part of the country, a belief in visions as something that is real was widespread. Check this out: http://www.irr.org/MIT/bomwit1.html

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Emily said,

August 8, 2006 @ 9:31 am

How fareth the monoglot in the land of Swahili? Travelogue, travelogue!

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Sarah said,

August 11, 2006 @ 11:22 am

Jeff,
Is it your belief that visions are not real? If so, it is just that…your belief. Many people today, probably more than in Joseph’s Smith’s time, believe that visions are real. Check your source.

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Jeff said,

August 20, 2006 @ 10:53 pm

Sarah,

Oh the silly things people will say to justify what they want to believe. Do you really think that more people today believe in visions than in Smith’s day? Where are all these people? They must be in hiding. Sure I’m aware of some who believe in visions, but where are these great numbers that you suggest? I think it’s you who better check your source, and it’s you who better check your rationality if you think visions are real.

The LDS church misrepresents many things about its history, and one of those is that Harris actually physically saw the plates, but Harris himself admitted that he didn’t. In essence, he said that he imagined that he saw them, only he called it “second sight” instead of imagination. There’s not a dimes worth of difference between the two.

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Emily said,

August 21, 2006 @ 6:16 pm

Jeff, I believe in visions from God, just so you know. Me, and millions of others like me.
I’m not sure what the motivation is behind your not-so-hidden agenda. Can’t you just not believe without tearing people apart? Go and not believe in peace, eh?

Ryan, I think we will discontinue the disharmony on this forum if you would just tell us about your trip, as well as the cool birthday present that was waiting for you when you got home….

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Sarah said,

August 23, 2006 @ 10:48 am

Amen Emily! Ryan, more about your trip.

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CL said,

August 23, 2006 @ 1:24 pm

Happy almost birthday, Ryan. Was your present a liger? Did you see a liger on your trip? Can I get any more laughs by saying liger?

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Emily said,

August 23, 2006 @ 4:06 pm

CL, how do I access your blog? (Liger jokes are very funny.)

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CL said,

August 24, 2006 @ 10:56 am

http://www.addledwriter.blogspot.com

And that’s no li…ger!

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Elinorr said,

January 21, 2007 @ 12:31 am

You may never get around to seeing this, since I’m way behind times, but for the record, Ryan, my great grandfather (whom I remember well) and your great,great grandfather John Ezekial Godfrey of Clarkston, as a young man of about age 19 personally heard Martin Harris bear witness to the Book of Mormon. He was an ailing old man in his 90’s, and the entertainment in that little community in the foothills of Utah was to go visit Brother Harris and ask him about the Book of Mormon. Did John E. want to go? He did. When he was in his old age, nearing 90 himself, he and others still living made a great effort to have legal and binding affadavits prepared as to what they saw and heard when they visited Maring. I’ll paraphrase since I don’t have the exact document in front of me, but it is in the Godfrey History book, and also posted at the [Godfrey] cemetery in Clarkston, Utah.

When the young men got to the little log house where Martin was living with his son & daughter-in-law, Martin was asked if he was up to talking with them. He said he was, asking to be raised to a sitting position, as he said, “I always like to talk about the Book of Mormon”.

One of the young men said, “Brother Harris, do you believe the Book of Mormon?

In a loud and very firm voice Brother Harris said, “NO. WHAT I KNOW, I KNOW. IT GOES BEYOND BELIEF. I DID SEE THAT ANGEL. I DID HOLD THOSE PLATES. WHAT I KNOW, I KNOW.”

Grandpa Johnny (John E.) as we called him wrote that he had an electric shocking feeling go all through his body, from his head to his toes as Martin spoke. I have seen a great many things in my day, and never have I had anything affect me as that testimony did. I knew he spoke the truth. He – John E. Godfrey went on to list some of the things he’d seen – men and teams caught in an avalance and swept to their death near the mining (now ski resort) at Alta,Utah. He doesn’t add the unspoken awe he felt at witnessing all this and living to tell about it, but it was something he never forgot to be grateful for.

Another time he as a young man out alone with a freight wagon came upon Indians – Native Americans – in a war dance, and the fright was almost beyond description, but he added that in his later years he saw many of those same Indians making peace with the white men, and that was an absolute miracle. He added another miraculous event, as he described the astonishment they all felt as the railroad they were helping to build through southern Idaho was able to cross the mighty treacherous Snake River at Idaho Falls – then Eagle Rock. When the train crossed it, they just were in total humility and wonder.

Grandpa Johnny was a man who stood for truth. He was the one who blessed me when I was born since my own father wasn’t that capable of spiritual things at that time in his life. That came later, in his own way. No one can tell me what I was blessed with, but knowing how affected he was for the rest of his life about hearing Martin Harris bear such a powerful witness of the truth of that precious Book of Mormon, I have wondered if he blessed me to have a powerful personal witness of my own about the Book of Mormon and the Gospel Joseph Smith restored. Do I believe in angels? Yes. Do I believe in visions? Yes. Was Joseph Smith who he said he was? Yes. Did he see not only angels but also God, the Eternal Father, and also his son Jesus Christ. Not a shadow of a doubt. Do I believe Grandpa Johnny (John E. Godfrey) Yes. Does it matter? Yes.

Grandpa Johnny and his son Ezekiel (Grandpa Zeke, father of my father Elbert Godfrey) did not see eye to eye on many things, and even had such strong feelings that Zeke was disinherited. Did he begrudge his father’s religion? Not his religion, ever, but yes, he did begrudge the way his father chose to treat him when he himself was mean and ‘onory’ as Grandpa Zeke could be. Yet, despite all that, Grandpa Zeke, son of Grandpa Johnny, told me many faith promoting stories when I was a young teen back in Clarkston visiting. He told of people healed by the power of the priesthood, which Joseph Smith restored. He told me 3 Nephi stories, the legends that have come down about the 3 Nephite disciples who did not taste of death. Yet Grandpa Zeke didn’t go to church, he cursed when he was angry with his horses, and his everyday language was not to be repeated, not then, not now. Yet how I loved him, and how I knew he was a believer. My own spiritual growth always took a spurt when I stayed in their home, although they had no blessing on the food, no family prayer, and were common country folk.

This is much too long, but I need to go on record to remind you all who might someday read this, that NOT ONE OF THOSE WHO WERE WITNESSES to the Book of Mormon ever denied their testimony, even though many, including Martin Harris, Oliver Cowdery, and David Whitmer left the church for several years. This despite persecutions, and many hard trials when it would have been convenient to just say no, didn’t happen. Instead they left strong witnesses in writing that indeed they did see the angel, and they did see the plates. I, too, add my own witness, that I know all this is true. Elinor Hyde

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Elinor said,

January 21, 2007 @ 12:39 am

A few typos, including the spelling of my name. Only 1 R on the end of Elinor. Sorry, did not get a screen that allowed me to edit. Nonetheless, I want to stand behind what I have written, hoping you will see beyond my typos. Elinor

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Sarah said,

January 23, 2007 @ 3:55 pm

You’re awesome Elinor!

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Elinor said,

January 29, 2007 @ 11:25 pm

Hey, Sarah, glad someone read what I wrote. I wanted to also write it on my Grandmahyde blog but it is being tempermental and not letting me in. I have to ask my blog specialist friend how to change it to my newer email, since it just recognizes the old one. I ought to add I read the Book of Mormon at age 14 and knew without question what I read was true. Later, as I studied at BYU with tremendous gospel scholars like Reed Bankhead, and others, I realized my first reading left me with the witness of truth but that many more amazing things were in that precious record. I try to read it once a year, sometimes as I did at age 14 when I read it in a few days. Other times I read a verse, a chapter or more and ponder for days on the wisdom it presents. As a writer I find the correlation in it unreal. I’ll have to send along Hugh Nibley’s challenge to write it as Joseph Smith did, in such a short time, with so many new ideas that all had to do: coordinate with historical things like special word endings and chhiasma poetry when no one knew about that for a hundred years, geography in the old world that traces exactly where Lehi & family would turn in another direction just as the incense trail does. I’ve read many books such as In Search of Lehi’s Tral by Lynn & Hope Hilton, Lehi in the Wilderness by George Potter and Richard Wellington, the Popol Vuh as translated by Allen J. Christenson, He Walked the Americas by Hansen, and many many more. All are wonderful but none compares with the actual text itself, all 527 or 531 pages, depending on which version is used. I might add as a young girl I was fascinated with Fairy Tales, and read every one our fine little Blackfoot library had, plus any more I could get my hands on. How I loved magic carpet stories, magic lamps, 7 League Boots, princesses awakened by a kiss, shoes that fit only Cinderella and on and on. Yet they were absolutely nothing after I read the Book of Mormon. Oh, fun reading but fantasy can’t compare with truth. As I matured and added additional learning to my line-upon-line education I marvelled at the Pearl of Great Price, also provided for our generation by the Prophet Joseph Smith. I acquired a strong background in Church History, along with the revelations in the Doctrine and Covemants, also given to us by the young prophet, who did so much in his 38 years. Our family heard and believed, and left lands and homes for this gospel. My great grandchildren are now 8th and 9th generations in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints on many of their ancestral lines. For example, 1.John Godfrey & Mary Pittaway Godfrey 2. John Ezekiel (John E.) and Lydia Gover Godfrey 3. Ezekiel H.(Zeke) and Agnes Wheatley Godfrey 4. H. Elbert and Abbie Scholes Godfrey (he didn’t use the Henry or Henery as his parents spelled it. Just the initial) 5. Elinor…Dennis, et al 6. my 6 children (and each of the Arizona connection–you know who you are 7. My 22 grandchildren which is also your own children’s generations, and now 8. my 10 great grandchildren. We could follow this same generational line back on the Scholes, the Burnhams, the Standleys, and on and on. Leo Tolstoy called the Gospel of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints “The American religion” and said if there was anything to it, it would show in the 3rd and 4th generation. It not only proved to be a true statement but now continues to grow. Once more I had my witness that it is a gift from God but open to all who want to know truth and are willing to live by the principles, willing to search ponder and pray. I know you are believers, as well, and I love and respect you for your stalwartness. Elinor

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Elinor said,

January 30, 2007 @ 11:34 am

Oh, the typos again. You few who have read this realize the first one has a typo for Martin in the first paragraph. It came out Maring not Martin. Then this last one chiasmas only has one “h” not 2, but you knew that, too. What I want to add is I made a major error in my listing of the Godfrey generations who were or are member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Daints: It is the very first one, before John & Mary Pittaway Godfrey, although John was the first to get baptized. His parents Thomas and Elizabeth Ainge Godfrey also joined the church and came to Utah after their children came. So that makes them number 1 as far as age, and everyone else moves down a notch–John; John E.; Zeke; Elbert; Elinor/Dennis et al; the Arizona folk and all the rest of that generation including my children; then your children; and whoever comes after including my great grandchildren. That makes you 7th generation and your children 8th generation church members. How’s that for fulfilling the promptings that woke me up at 5 a.m. this morning. Thomas & Elizabeth don’t want to be forgotten. One of their sons Richard was a handcart pioneer. For more information on the ships, their immigration and such go to the LDS.org website and look up Overland Trails to learn more about the pioneers. Another good one is Perpetual Emigration Fund. “By their fruits ye shall know them.”See the Gover-Godfrey book that came out 2003 for further stories and information. I also sent the Hugh Nibley challenge via email to Amye. Try that one on as a good writing exercise. Sorry I am not more computer savvy so you can link on these sites. Maybe you can add them. Elinor

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uberbilly said,

February 5, 2007 @ 7:27 pm

OK…so a 90 year old man recalling what a 90 year old man told him 80 years before is a enough to base a faith upon?

So…we are dealing with 120 year time difference? As a historian…all I can say is that this makes a great Scpooby Doo mystery, but not much else.

Sorry about your luck.

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Elinor said,

February 13, 2007 @ 1:16 am

Guess the USA didn’t have founding fathers or a constitution if time is the measure. By their fruits ye shall know them. Sorry you don’t believe, but my belief is knowledge gained many places, many ways, including reading HUNDREDS of journals from people who listened and believed in the Prophet Joseph Smith and the truth he restored, beginning with The Book of Mormon. Strange that so many people, not just my great grandfather, living so many places, and coming from such a variety of backgrounds all have the same theme, that of belief in God the Eternal Father, and in his Son Jesus the Christ,and many other truths taught then and now, and an abundance of literature that confirms their belief. That’s including the Book of Mormon. Doesn’t matter if you believe or not. It is still truth. I think your age difference, is not quite a good argument, especially if, as you say, you are an historian. A true historian takes the facts, sifts them, and doesn’t put here and now on what is discovered, but takes them in context of truth. The facts are, try to write 527 pages and have everything come out accurate, including the interweaving of a lot of stories. I challenge you to read the Book of Mormon, not read about it or what the doubters have to say. Really read it, and then try to duplicate it, oh and do so in only a few months. Hmm. Bet you can’t do it. Neither can I and I am a well-published author. But more than that, get millions to agree with what you have written, and change their lives. Let me know when you are done and we’ll give you a fair trial. Nothing Scoobey Doo about it. Good Luck. Oh, a nice statement that comes from this tradition: Show me a sign! Try Korihor’s experience in the Book of Mormon and see what happens to those who say show me a sign and I’ll believe. He didn’t fare too well nor did other anti-Christs. His story, by the way is on about page 269 in the Book of Alma, one of the interesting items Joseph Smith translated, in the Book of Mormon. I expect you don’t believe in Mom or apple pie, either. They both go back a long way, too. So does love, and kindness and oh, yes, maybe even a few other things. Just know we love you, believer, or not. We know, a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still. So we’ll accept you as you are but maybe you could accept us as we are, too. Give it a whirl. You might like it. Love is lots stronger than hate and truth much more powerful than anything.

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Drew said,

February 13, 2007 @ 6:12 pm

Aww, Mom and apple pie….and the Mormon Church. There’s not too much that’s more American than those three things. That’s why the Church works so well in this country. It was founded by an American on many American principles in a rather recent time period (unlike most other Christian religions, which have a lot of rituals which make even less sense than the Mormons’, probably due to their age). Maybe that’s why “so many people from so many different backgrounds” have come to accept it.

I hate to tell you, but truth and fact are not the same thing. A fact is something that is independently verifiable, such as the acceleration due to gravity, or the speed of light in a vacuum, or the reason the sky is blue (the highest frequency of visible light produced by the sun is blue, and it’s also scattered the easiest by dust in the atmosphere). Facts are based on and can be used in logic.

Truth is something completely different. Truth is something individual, and it’s neither absolute nor universal. If that were so, there would be a lot less of these “oh so” interesting discussions. Many religions (ESPECIALLY Mormonism) do not acknowledge that truth is not absolute. It is a very one-size-fits-all dogma, and if something is not working just right, then it’s obviously the member’s fault, not the Church’s.

Elinor, I have no doubt that you know the Church is true, as do many other members. And I honestly believe you. It is true….for you, and others. But not for everyone, and not for me. What’s interesting is how many people will SAY they know the church is true in testimony meeting, just to fit in, when they don’t really believe it (I’ve been guilty of it, as have many others, if you ever go to exmormon.org, which I’m sure you don’t, since it’s “anti-Mormon”). If you don’t think this happens, look up “group think” in wikipedia, and it will tell you how that was part of the cause of the Challenger Shuttle disaster (they knew there was a problem with the o-rings on the solid fuel boosters, but decided to launch anyway, because of all the media and government pressure put on them).

I enjoy your stories, and I also believe they’re true. However, I will say this: stories that are told 2nd or 3rd or 4th hand tend to change ever so slightly, due to an individual’s interpretation of it, and their consequent paraphrasing when retelling it (just as you said you paraphrased it for us). This is not intentional..everyone does it. Ever play “telephone”? My grandpa worked for AT&T, and they did a similar exercise at his work. One guy would come up with a story, and tell it to one other person in the group in a room where they’re isolated, then the first guy leaves, a third guy comes in, the third tells the second, etc etc, and then when their through, they all come to the same room and retell the stories…and it’s NOWHERE NEAR how it started!! (they would be on the floor laughing about how it changed so much…in my grandpa’s words). Now, if a story is retold in order to support Mormonism, it will obviously receive a bias as it’s being told (unconsciously) by the religious tendencies of the story-teller, and will change ever so slightly with each retelling (and each person it passes through).

I don’t think Jeff’s statement about visions was meant to be inflammatory, but Sarah’s attack resulted in him going on the defensive, then retaliating. Mormons are a small percentage of the population, and the majority of people in the U.S. today probably do not believe in visions. I believe people have visions, of course, and I believe they sincerely believe in what they see, but I also believe that sometimes your mind plays tricks on you (you should hear some of the wacky stuff people claim to see…not Mormons, mind you, but others). You three kinda ganged up on Jeff, which wasn’t the nicest thing to do if you’re “accepting” him and offering him “love and kindness”.

Which brings me to another point. Just because the Mormon Church is based on love (just like practically every other religion in the world…excluding Islam) doesn’t mean that anything ‘anti-Mormon’ is anti-love. That’s silly. I don’t believe in Mormonism, but I can’t necessarily say I hate it, nor any of its members. You implied that Jeff is full of hate, but he never represented that in his words. And if you accept him so much, ‘just the way he is’, then why is your response so long? Because you enjoy telling others what you believe and why? So do others. I don’t think anyone is either rejecting or accepting any body else here based on that any more than anyone else, so finger pointing isn’t really going to help.

Now, with what I just said about not hating the Church, is sadly not true for many other who have left. Why do they hate the Church? I think a lot of it is anger. They believe they have been duped or tricked or lied to by either the Church or someone (or several someones) in it, and naturally, they are angry for that, as well as angry for believing it so long. They believe that they have wasted many years and $$ trying to be good at something they found out not to be true (for them, mind you, I’m not saying it’s not true for you). Many had brought kids into this ‘wonderful’ religion, to find out later that they didn’t think it was so wonderful. And, naturally, they wouldn’t wish such a fate on others, so they take the Church’s active missionary efforts as an attempt to spread lies.

Like I said, everyone is entitled to believe what they want, and for many, Mormonism works. But not for everyone. “Fastest growing religion?” Not hardly. And not only that, but probably half (or more) of the Church’s millions of members are inactive, and many want nothing to do with the Church (such as me, who is also an inactive member);it’s hard to leave, because many times in order to leave you must be “excommunicated” for some sin to actually get taken off the membership rolls, which many people who leave haven’t committed. They leave because they don’t believe it’s true, not because they want to sin.

Alright, sorry, that was longer than I had anticipated (it usually is), but you seem like very intelligent people (especially you, Elinor). If you wish to continue this discussion, we can either here, or you can e-mail me at arruud AT hotmail.com (notice my high-tech spam filter). I would not give you my e-mail address if you didn’t have my respect. Thanks!

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Jamie Larsen said,

October 7, 2007 @ 12:48 pm

Elinor, I want to know more about the Gover – Godfrey book from 2003. Please contact me.

Jamie

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Materdei said,

December 8, 2007 @ 11:09 am

So how far are some you guys in becoming Celestial Gods and Goddesses?

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Emily said,

January 5, 2008 @ 1:22 pm

Wow, how did I miss all this? What search terms brought so many people here to debate?

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bam22 said,

June 21, 2008 @ 1:00 am

You can believe what you want, their is no harm in that. However, don’t expect the rest of us to take the same liberties with history the Mormons do. Native Americans were NOT from is Israel !! It has been tested and The museum of Natural Science has given more than one letter to the leaders of LDS asking them to stop teaching such untruths. DNA testing people, we do check that stuff now. Your writings like most religions has also been openly tampered with over time with half truths and misinformation and shared in straight out racism during the 50s saying blacks were would only get into heaven as slaves and claimed polygamy was required because there was more Women then men which is also untrue (you see there is this thing called the census). If you are all so well read I suggest you research that instead of relying on word of mouth from other Mormons. With that said I am glad you have such faith, People do need to take leaps of faith from time to time but don’t preach to me about how the world just doesn’t get you or your “prophet” Joseph Smith because because like most relig3eons you can’t prove anything the difference with yours is it only dates back a couple hundred years and science can disprove most of your historical claims.
Like I said before you shouldn’t trust just me or your Mormon leaders look up the information for yourself!! It is all out their and plentiful, some of you claim to research things and check information, so do it. Believe what you want that is your choice , however you can’t rewrite history to custom fit a religion and refrain from stopping me on the street or knocking on my door I have faith in something and also in truth , we will not share these things in the Mormon religion.

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jordan said,

July 10, 2008 @ 1:15 am

Drew,

I agree about the whole “telephone” effect skewing stories – people either leave out important parts or they exaggerate to make a better story or they just mix up the facts.
So to avoid this problem, God has always (Old Testament times and modern times) had His prophets write stuff down so anyone can get the facts for themselves rather than through the grapevine.

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monoglot said,

July 10, 2008 @ 1:54 am

Jordan, it’s not quite so easy. God’s prophets have written stuff down for all of human history, in hieroglyphics and cuneiform and cave paintings, in the Oracle at Delphi, in the palaces of the Mughals, and on the road to Medina. They were poisoned in the fourth century, burned at the stake in the 15th, and ridiculed on the internet in the 21st. There’s been an awful lot of people over the millennia who knew with absolute knowledge that they were bring God’s inviolate Truth to the world, and all of them were in direct contradiction with almost all of the rest of them. In other words, God and God’s messengers have given us an inconceivable number of facts over the years and most of those facts don’t agree with most of the other facts.

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