I agree about the whole “telephone” effect skewing stories – people either leave out important parts or they exaggerate to make a better story or they just mix up the facts.
So to avoid this problem, God has always (Old Testament times and modern times) had His prophets write stuff down so anyone can get the facts for themselves rather than through the grapevine.

Jamie

I hate to tell you, but truth and fact are not the same thing. A fact is something that is independently verifiable, such as the acceleration due to gravity, or the speed of light in a vacuum, or the reason the sky is blue (the highest frequency of visible light produced by the sun is blue, and it’s also scattered the easiest by dust in the atmosphere). Facts are based on and can be used in logic.

Truth is something completely different. Truth is something individual, and it’s neither absolute nor universal. If that were so, there would be a lot less of these “oh so” interesting discussions. Many religions (ESPECIALLY Mormonism) do not acknowledge that truth is not absolute. It is a very one-size-fits-all dogma, and if something is not working just right, then it’s obviously the member’s fault, not the Church’s.

Elinor, I have no doubt that you know the Church is true, as do many other members. And I honestly believe you. It is true….for you, and others. But not for everyone, and not for me. What’s interesting is how many people will SAY they know the church is true in testimony meeting, just to fit in, when they don’t really believe it (I’ve been guilty of it, as have many others, if you ever go to exmormon.org, which I’m sure you don’t, since it’s “anti-Mormon”). If you don’t think this happens, look up “group think” in wikipedia, and it will tell you how that was part of the cause of the Challenger Shuttle disaster (they knew there was a problem with the o-rings on the solid fuel boosters, but decided to launch anyway, because of all the media and government pressure put on them).

I enjoy your stories, and I also believe they’re true. However, I will say this: stories that are told 2nd or 3rd or 4th hand tend to change ever so slightly, due to an individual’s interpretation of it, and their consequent paraphrasing when retelling it (just as you said you paraphrased it for us). This is not intentional..everyone does it. Ever play “telephone”? My grandpa worked for AT&T, and they did a similar exercise at his work. One guy would come up with a story, and tell it to one other person in the group in a room where they’re isolated, then the first guy leaves, a third guy comes in, the third tells the second, etc etc, and then when their through, they all come to the same room and retell the stories…and it’s NOWHERE NEAR how it started!! (they would be on the floor laughing about how it changed so much…in my grandpa’s words). Now, if a story is retold in order to support Mormonism, it will obviously receive a bias as it’s being told (unconsciously) by the religious tendencies of the story-teller, and will change ever so slightly with each retelling (and each person it passes through).

I don’t think Jeff’s statement about visions was meant to be inflammatory, but Sarah’s attack resulted in him going on the defensive, then retaliating. Mormons are a small percentage of the population, and the majority of people in the U.S. today probably do not believe in visions. I believe people have visions, of course, and I believe they sincerely believe in what they see, but I also believe that sometimes your mind plays tricks on you (you should hear some of the wacky stuff people claim to see…not Mormons, mind you, but others). You three kinda ganged up on Jeff, which wasn’t the nicest thing to do if you’re “accepting” him and offering him “love and kindness”.

Which brings me to another point. Just because the Mormon Church is based on love (just like practically every other religion in the world…excluding Islam) doesn’t mean that anything ‘anti-Mormon’ is anti-love. That’s silly. I don’t believe in Mormonism, but I can’t necessarily say I hate it, nor any of its members. You implied that Jeff is full of hate, but he never represented that in his words. And if you accept him so much, ‘just the way he is’, then why is your response so long? Because you enjoy telling others what you believe and why? So do others. I don’t think anyone is either rejecting or accepting any body else here based on that any more than anyone else, so finger pointing isn’t really going to help.

Now, with what I just said about not hating the Church, is sadly not true for many other who have left. Why do they hate the Church? I think a lot of it is anger. They believe they have been duped or tricked or lied to by either the Church or someone (or several someones) in it, and naturally, they are angry for that, as well as angry for believing it so long. They believe that they have wasted many years and $$ trying to be good at something they found out not to be true (for them, mind you, I’m not saying it’s not true for you). Many had brought kids into this ‘wonderful’ religion, to find out later that they didn’t think it was so wonderful. And, naturally, they wouldn’t wish such a fate on others, so they take the Church’s active missionary efforts as an attempt to spread lies.

Like I said, everyone is entitled to believe what they want, and for many, Mormonism works. But not for everyone. “Fastest growing religion?” Not hardly. And not only that, but probably half (or more) of the Church’s millions of members are inactive, and many want nothing to do with the Church (such as me, who is also an inactive member);it’s hard to leave, because many times in order to leave you must be “excommunicated” for some sin to actually get taken off the membership rolls, which many people who leave haven’t committed. They leave because they don’t believe it’s true, not because they want to sin.

Alright, sorry, that was longer than I had anticipated (it usually is), but you seem like very intelligent people (especially you, Elinor). If you wish to continue this discussion, we can either here, or you can e-mail me at arruud AT hotmail.com (notice my high-tech spam filter). I would not give you my e-mail address if you didn’t have my respect. Thanks!

So…we are dealing with 120 year time difference? As a historian…all I can say is that this makes a great Scpooby Doo mystery, but not much else.

Sorry about your luck.